Logic and its Discontents
Gays and the Boy Scouts December 9th. 2007, 11:23amSo there’s this guy. He is a Boy Scout leader (well, technically, Sea Scouts, but that’s just BSA in a boat) named Eugene Evans, who made headlines about ten years ago when he sued (unsuccessfully) to stop the city of Berkeley, California, from canceling the city’s agreement to provide berthing for Sea Scout vessels. (Similar to the current Philadelphia case, the Scouts created the facilities in question in cooperation with the government, in an earlier era.)
Evans has now been arrested on 19 counts of felony sexual assault, for allegedly sexually abusing four of the young men in his charge, ranging in age from 13 to 17. These charges are very serious and if they are proved, Evans will be going away for a long time. Good.
If you ask most people why the Boy Scouts of America bars gays from positions of leadership, you are likely to get variants on one or both of the following responses:
- homosexual behavior is morally improper, and Scout leaders must be moral role models for their charges
- leaders often have unhindered contact with the boys in their troop in conditions of physical isolation, and it would be inappropriate to have leaders who could be sexually attracted to boys under those circumstances
Now, the first reason is one on which people of good will may disagree. Not everyone agrees that homosexual behavior is morally wrong; I’ve seen a variety of numbers bandied about, but picking the first reasonable survey I could find online, about 25% of Americans say that homosexual behavior is morally acceptable. It probably depends on how you define “morally acceptable” - my personal experience is that it’s more 50-50. Regardless, there’s a major division here, not a social consensus, and even as a Christian who believes homosexual behavior IS morally wrong (though not uniquely or particularly so), I can readily accept a good faith argument from someone who doesn’t.
The second reason is one where you would think there would be less contention. There are sexual predators in the world; one of the most straightforward ways of protecting young people from such predation is to be a little bit picky about who gets to take them out into the woods or onto the ocean; Scout leaders are in a position of guardianship and protection over their charges; you don’t set a fox to guard the henhouse. It’s common sense.
But gay rights proponents are, in my experience, unremittingly hostile to this line of argument. “Not all gay men are attracted to teenage boys, and even among those who are, they aren’t all predators!” And of course, this is true - just as it is true that not all men are attracted to teenage girls, and even among those who are, there are many who would never indulge that attraction. Yet, the Girl Scouts of America do not permit men to be troop leaders or take girls on camping trips - again, because it’s common sense.
All foxes will rob a henhouse; foxes are just animals. Not all gay or straight men would make or accept sexual advances from a teenage boy or girl; people have control over our actions. So isn’t it horribly unfair to bar gays from Scout leadership roles, and to keep men out of the GSA? Yes, it is unfair, but it is also the best we can do. It would be nice if there were some way that we could predictably identify sexual predators, to be able to point to a guy and say “this one will molest anyone he can get alone in his tent”. But unfortunately, we can’t do that. Which means we are forced to either give up on the idea of protecting our children from sexual predation when they go off to scouting activities, or forced to draw broader boundaries around who can and can’t be a leader. Note that the GSA doesn’t screen male leadership candidates to keep out the perverts and let in the nice guys who want to help girls; they just say “no boys allowed”.
Which brings us circuitously back to Mr. Evans. You might think that his case would seem relevant to the argument over the BSA policy. After all, here is a living example of the problem that the BSA’s policy is intended to prevent: a man who is sexually attracted to males took advantage of his power relationship with these boys. But no - because, you see, Mr. Evans isn’t gay. No! He’s a pedophile.
The first commenter at Alas and the second commenter at Feministe both immediately did make the logically obvious jump: Mr. Evans is a closeted gay man, whose (presumptive) self-torment led him to abuse these boys and also to be an advocate for the BSA’s restrictionist policies. (It is a common theme on lefty sites that men who advocate for anti-gay measures are closeted gays themselves; although I hate the theme, there does seem to be some evidence for its validity. A lot of anti-gay-rights campaigners do seem to end up in those toilet stalls.)
Fortunately, the mental hygiene patrol was quick on the case, reminding us all that no, no, no - only when someone who engages in homosexual behavior does so in a socially acceptable fashion are they “gay”. Anyone who does something BAD can’t be gay - they must be a pedophile. Because as we all know, adults who want to tap some 17-year-old are sexually attracted to CHILDREN. 17-year-olds look like toddlers, you know.
Except that - wait - they don’t. A 17-year-old boy is physically an adult. A male who wants to have sex with someone who looks like an adult man is (to at least some degree) homosexual - not pedophiliac.
Now, in Evans’ case, there were some younger boys as well, down to 13. Possibly they were young-looking (some 13-year olds are wispy kids who haven’t hit puberty yet, and some are 6′2″ and shave) and he does have some pedophiliac interests in addition to his homosexuality; I don’t know. But the homosexuality part of it is pretty clear.
But in the world of the dedicated gay rights proponent, acknowledging that truth is impossible because it undermines the belief that the only motivation for the BSA’s policy is bigotry and hatred.
If Eugene Evans did the things that he is accused of, then he is a closeted gay or bisexual man, possibly with an attraction to younger men - and his case is one more data point that indicates that at least one of the premises underlying the BSA’s policies is not counter to material fact.
(Update: Mandolin of Alas is under the impression that this post is attempting to “make a case that pedophilia and homosexuality are linked”. Er, no. I don’t know whether she is reading poorly or just lying. It’s often hard to tell.)
(Updated again: The second commenter at Feministe was actually attempting to sarcastically mock this position, not take it. My misreading.)

December 9th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
[…] links, and I don’t want to trackback-spam the blogs I’m linking to, so I’ll just point you in the right direction. Or the wrong direction, depending your point of […]
December 9th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Since I am the second commenter at Feministe- maybe you should not be a duplicitous asshole about what I wrote.
“Maybe he was mistakenly afraid of the competition.”
The mistakenly is the important part. Only homophobes and child molesters think that gays are trying to rape kids.
December 9th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
My error, Red Queen. I didn’t catch the “mistakenly”.
Your last sentence is absurd. Child molestation occurs at the hands of people who identify as straight, and people who identify as gay. This is simply an empirical fact. Recognizing it does not make one “homophobic”, but denying it does make one out of touch with reality.
December 9th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
I find it hard to believe that you didn’t catch the mistakenly being that there was all of one sentence in my comment. It’s not like you had a lot to read through.
And the only people who I have ever heard say they were afraid of the gays molesting their boys were- homophobes who think there is some grand conspiracy to turn people gay, or child molesters. I have yet to hear a story about an out gay man who likes little boys.
December 9th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
What you have “heard” has no relevance, Red Queen. The question is, what do people do. Whether you hear about it is immaterial.
Besides, you “heard” about a man who has sex with 17-year olds, and you don’t think he’s gay. Your hearing doesn’t seem to be so good.
December 9th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
You know what is relevant? This guy coerced/intimidated kids into nonconsensual sex with him after trumpeting the BSA’s party line about how those evil gays were after everybody’s kids.
How many more kids’ lives will have to be ruined before the people supposedly interested in protecting them will figure out where the real threat is hiding? While you’re splitting hairs about age of consent and the appearance of maturity, people like Eugene Evans are playing you and people like you for suckers with their misdirection.
It makes me sick that anyone would fall for it, but you seem to want confirmation that homosexuals are all inherently wicked so badly that you just keep lapping this garbage up, so badly that you’ll stand glaring angrily between an out homosexual man and a young boy while easily trusting the “average straight guy” who only fits that mold because it makes it easier for him to hunt for victims without falling under suspicion.
The BSA’s policy against openly gay Scouts and Scoutmasters isn’t protecting anyone but the victimizers using it for a smokescreen. It gives them convenient camouflage, a rigged vetting process that allows them an appearance of being trustworthy simply because they can pretend to be the shallow “ideal” the BSA is looking for.
I think perhaps you should worry less about Red Queen’s hearing and more about your vision. Maybe then you’d notice the sick illusionist game that keeps costing the kids in scouting so dearly.
December 9th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
I’m quite sure that I’ve made very clear (both here, where I explicitly say it, and in my previous extensive writings on this and related subjects), that while homosexual behavior is morally problematic, it is not uniquely or drastically so. I would (much) rather my children turn out gay than that they turn out to commit any number of other sins.
So, please take the “you just hate the gays so much you’re blind” nonsense and find someone for whom it is an appropriate criticism - or at least someone for whom you can point to something other than direct contradictions of the thesis as evidence.
On to the remainder of your response. You accuse me of “lapping up garbage” - but I am not lapping up anything. I am making my own points and advancing my own argument, not facilitating someone else’s agenda. The only “garbage” I see in this entire discussion is the notion that people who are attracted to full-grown human beings are somehow “pedophiles” - a ridiculous identification that is being used by activists to mislabel a problem, to avoid an embarassing reality that makes life difficult for their side. The No True Scotsman fallacy is hardly restricted to ethnic identification.
I do NOT easily trust the “average straight guy”. Indeed, as (once again) I explicitly state in the post, the very problem we face in protecting children from molestation is that we can’t tell in advance who is going to do what. All we can do is play the numbers and exclude broad categories of people that we think more likely to have problematic behavior.
I agree as a matter of conceptual logic that any screening process can be used by the “real criminals” as a shield/smokescreen. That does not logically lead us to the conclusion that the screening process is valueless; it leads us to the conclusion - found in pretty much every area of social policy - that we need to keep our eye on the actual goal or problem, and not get obsessive about the strategy or tactic of the moment. The actual goal is protecting children from sexual predation.
The idea that the screening process, however, is what is responsible for “costing the kids in scouting so dearly” is both absurd and evil. Absurd, in that it puts the locus of blame for a problem on the people trying in good faith to fix it; evil, in that it erases and disappears the actual individual human beings who are committing wrong acts, and glosses their evil in the name of a political agenda.
December 9th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
LOL
This in and of itself is absurd. Evans was hardly acting in good faith by pushing the anti-gay agenda of the BSA was he? He was using it to obscure his own misdeeds. As for evil, I’d say claiming that the across-the-board ban on homosexuals in scouting is justified is pretty damn evil. It fixes nothing. It’s a sop, a panacea that makes the people who think homosexuality is the problem feel better about trusting the BSA to protect their kids. It keeps the focus away from the actual predators, who convincingly portray themselves as the “safe” ideal of the straight christian guy, effectively doing the same thing you’re railing against, “disappearing the actual individual human beings who are committing the wrong acts and glosses their evil in the name of a political agenda”. You yourself are doing the same thing. You’re more interested in saying “This guy was GAY I tell ya, GAY!” than the fact that he was apparently using the anti-gay policy of the BSA to cloak himself from scrutiny.
And yet in your post you say also that the ban on homosexuals in scouting makes sense and that it’s “the best we can do”. If we can’t tell who’s going to do what, how does the ban make sense since it obviously assumes who’s going to do what? It essentially claims that it can weed out sexual predators based on one characteristic which keeps turning out to be false, over and over again. How is that not absurd and evil? Giving parents and kids a false sense of security by banning a large group of people from participation while allowing people like Evans to slip through if they pretend to be “normal” convincingly enough seems the very definition of absurd and evil.
Child molestation is a confidence game. Sexual predators of this nature seek to do two things: win the confidence and trust of both adults AND children. Show them an image that they have to project that virtually guarantees they’ll be above suspicion and they will project it. The ban on homosexuals clearly implies that homosexuals will molest kids and “straight” people will not. It sets people up with false expectations that child molesters will use to their own advantage. Just like Evans did.
I think you’re confusing physical maturity with emotional and mental maturity, especially in light of the fact that Evans’ youngest victim was 13. A 13 or 17 year old may physically appear to be an adult but the vast majority of them are not adult at all in their emotional or mental development how ever much they may pretend to be. Seriously, do you really consider a 13-year-old to be an adult, capable of making adult decisions, capable of seeing their way through the confidence-engendering tricks of a sexual predator? That vulnerability, that lack of experience and maturity is half of what child molesters look for. Someone they can manipulate and confuse, someone without any troublesome defenses, someone easily intimidated. That you’d believe a 17-year-old doesn’t or can’t fall into those categories is monstrous. You might as well be blaming the kid for what happened to him. All it does is illustrate your willful ignorance regarding the motives and methodologies of child molesters and reinforces the same old tired stereotypes about how gay men secretly want to despoil young boys. The physical appearance of the victim is not the entirety of the motivation; just as important is the victim’s relative mental and emotional immaturity and vulnerability, without which they become far less attractive to a pedophile.
This is the inherent problem with your analysis. It ignores the time-worn tactics that molesters have used since before human society began to openly recognize them. They seek positions of authority over young people. They seek the trust of other adults and the trust of their victims. They project behavior that they know will afford them trustworthy status and deflect any accusations leveled against them. They avoid behaviors that will lead to scrutiny. When possible they will alter the safeguards of power structures (like BSA leadership) to their own advantage, both to steer suspicion away from themselves and onto others as well as to give them greater access to potential victims. They will also take full advantage of institutions that follow the “cover your own ass first” policy, such as they’ve done with the Catholic Church for decades as it shuffled predators from congregation to congregation to hide the problem instead of confronting and eliminating it.
The broad ban on homosexuals is a quick fix, a feel-good solution to a serious problem, meant mainly to appease idiots who believe surface affectations of “normalcy” are more important than the content of one’s character. It is absurd and it is evil and it only serves a political agenda that cares less for the safety of children than it does for reinforcing false stereotypes.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
I’d just like to say that actually, men are allowed to be Girl Scout leaders. GSA encourages men to volunteer. I know a couple cookie dads and male leaders.
I’m not sure on men taking girls camping alone, but I do know that all troops or GS outings are required to be chaperoned by two unrelated adults. This means no husband/wife, mother/daughter, cousin, or sibling combinations. I believe the thinking is there are reduced loyalties between friends, so improper behaviors get noticed and reported quicker.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Apologies for messing up the link.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
[…] Bunch of links on scouting and gay rights […]
December 11th, 2007 at 11:23 am
And yet in your post you say also that the ban on homosexuals in scouting makes sense and that it’s “the best we can do”. If we can’t tell who’s going to do what, how does the ban make sense since it obviously assumes who’s going to do what?
We cannot tell what INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE are going to do what. We can make reasonable assumptions about groups - specifically, we can acknowledge that people who are sexually attracted to people of their own gender are more likely to have sex with people of that gender (including teenagers) than people who aren’t attracted to their own gender.
All it does is illustrate your willful ignorance regarding the motives and methodologies of child molesters and reinforces the same old tired stereotypes about how gay men secretly want to despoil young boys.
17 year olds are not children. People who have sex with 17 year olds are not child molesters.
December 11th, 2007 at 11:24 am
Greenmouse - Thanks for the information and the link.
Will the GSUSA permit two men to take a bunch of girls on a camping trip?